I suppose what you’re talking about is a very long term, changing the script type of thing (like CBT) not a direct response to a particular statement. What I see is the people who invest in it might be the people who already consider the beauty myths and cultural loadings of what they’re saying. That is, not the people for whom the script changing would be completely revolutionary. Not to say it’s not worthwhile, just…gah. Not even sure what I’m saying.

Example: my mum is a massive gym junkie. She’s at the gym for two hours every day and is outrageously fit and slim. When she hasn’t been to the gym because she’s been away or something she’ll be like “ugh, I feel so fat because I skipped the gym for a week”. I really hate that, because she’s not fat, and it feels like she is telling me (as my mother): get thee to a treadmill. But my discomfort doesn’t change the fact that it’s her reality. If she was to unpack that statement to something like, “I’d usually exercise more than this and I miss that as well as the comraderie I share with the other gym goers” I think I’d still feel that internal flinch. (Although, maybe to a lesser degree.)

Hmm. Might need to think some more. And stop trying to process these things on deadline.

“My hair is a mess unless I straighten it” isn’t about our feelings about curly hair in general, but about our lack of ability to control the hair on *our own* head.

You’re right.

I don’t think it’s possible — or beneficial — to try to avoid all personal offense; what I want to try to avoid, and help others avoid as much as they choose to, is offensive statements against an entire marginalized group, or which rely on the -ist memes that fat = bad, kinky = bad, etc.

For a language suggestion for your case, how about: “I have yet to find [or haven't found] a way to wear my hair curly that I like.” It doesn’t say your hair is bad, it doesn’t say curly is bad, but it does express your feelings about your hair and why you straighten or cut it short. (Or, if it’s longer and unstraightened: “I can’t stand my hair like this.” Just not “My hair sucks because it’s so curly”, which relies on the assumption that really curly = bad.)

And, of course, if none of that rings true to you, well, ok then. It’s more important to get our truth out, however imperfectly, than to be stifled for fear of not doing it “right”.

What I want is for us to be able to realize the ramifications of our words — on other people, on ourselves — and to have the tools to change that if we choose to. If at any given time, you don’t have the energy or the time or the spoons to? Then don’t. It’s ok, really.

What I found, though, as Kareena alluded to above, was that the more I thought about the language I used about myself when I wasn’t in a stressed-out space (and I did a lot of this work in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), the more I had it in my “tool box” when I was and the better I felt about myself overall. Not because I was repressing or denying anything, but that I was able to express how I felt at that moment about myself (all my body hatred and fear and disgust) without making it an absolute statement about the way I was. (Example: “I feel disgusting (because of my fat)” rather than “I’m disgustingly fat” — or, because my post was about the things we do and don’t do, “I don’t feel confident enough to wear that in public” rather than “I’m too fat to wear that in public”.) That I also helped make it more comfortable for others was almost a bonus at that point, because — although I was still saying the negative things about myself (more truthful, even, than before) — the phrasing helped me get to a happier place with my body, where it wasn’t wrong, and the way I felt about it wasn’t wrong, but it just was. And that was OK.

But, again, I’m not saying there’s an obligation for anyone with a marginalized body (such as any woman) to do this. Do I want everyone to? Well, yeah. But I’m not the language or the thought police, and I don’t want anyone else to be either.

“Toe-staring size Fs” is about the best phrase I’ve heard today. I have “WALL-Es”.

Now carry on with your excellent conversation, I am reading intently and enjoying.

But I think it’s very important to acknowledge that there is a very strong cultural script surrounding these issues. And as much as I would like to ‘own my feelings’ and not take offense at a thinner woman calling herself ‘disgustingly fat’, the fact is that when a woman does this, it taps into the cultural script about how fat=bad and that is a universal statement, right there, whether she intends to be making it or not. Now, I think this only applies to certain types of body snark/body shame. (I’m talking mostly about weight here because that’s the area that resonates most with me, although I know there are other body concerns that have similar impact.)For instance, if someone talked about how she felt she couldn’t wear open-toed shoes because she didn’t like her toes – I wouldn’t feel it was a judgement on my toes. We don’t have a particularly strongly adhered to beauty standard regarding toes (that I’m aware of anyway!)

So I suppose what I’m saying is that, yes, one may genuinely feel as an individual, ‘too fat’- but commentary on weight comes with so much loading that I think a greater awareness of its power is necessary. That doesn’t mean I’d advocate for a ban on any negative language around weight and size – just that I prefer the people around me to use more nuanced language in that area, to own their feelings, to be conscious of how their feelings about their body may be influenced by kyriarchy, to be aware that if they tap into the narrative of fat=bad that’s going to impact on those around them. For the most part, they do these days, and I am thankful for it. I’m also perfectly capable of brushing off one or two comments, or of empathising with a (thinner) friend who is having a particularly hard time, or who has a real shame about her big thighs, or whatever. So I wouldn’t want to jump in and silence Shiny in the kind of situation she’s describing, or anyone else. But I think it’s when unchecked and thoughtless self-criticism is repeated over and over (and when this happens, it’s usually the case that other women chime in and it becomes a big ol’ self-hate gossip session) it is incredibly painful to be around.

Related, I think what you say about your body being more policed would be true if it were only fat, floppy, kinky-haired women were saying these things, but they’re not. Like in Kelly’s example, it comes from women with size privilege, moaning about having to wear a — gasp! — size ten. It comes from women with B-cup breasts with nipples that point out, and is said in front of me with my toe-staring size Fs (or Is or Ks or whatever they are while nursing). And when it comes from a fat woman, from a floppy breasted woman, it might feel truthful (therefore be truthful to some extent), but more often in my experience it kyriarchy using her voice as a mouthpiece to hurt herself. To some extent, yes, I am advocating that marginalized bodies stop contributing to our own marginalization, but only in as much as it feels right to us, and I am not placing the burden for change exclusively on us because we are so not the only ones who do this.

I am not trying to muzzle ambivalence or negativity about anyone’s bodies, only trying to point out that there are ways to express all sorts of feelings — positive, negative, ambivalent, neutral — in ways that do not contribute to kyriarchy. If the language rings false to you, then it’s not the right language for you. I’m not being facetious in that, at all. If the language is wrong, find better language.

But I’m struggling with the curly hair example. For one thing, I’m not sure that I think saying “I want my hair to be straight” is any less of an “anti-curly hair” statement than saying “My hair’s a mess unless I straighten it.” To me, both seem just as open to being interpreted as saying that curly hair is “bad.” (Just as saying “I want to be thin” or “I wish I were thin” has the potential hidden message that being heavy is undesirable)

As a woman who has had curly hair most of my adult life, I agree with Alexis in that for me at least (and I think many curly-headed women) saying “My hair is a mess unless I straighten it” isn’t about our feelings about curly hair in general, but about our lack of ability to control the hair on *our own* head. I admire curly hair, I think it’s beautiful, and have thought so on women who wore it proudly despite frizz, etc. But try as I might, I’ve yet to find a good way to wear my hair curly and have it look good. So I usually straighten…(or wear it short, as I have the past 3 yrs). I wish I didn’t have to, but it’s either that or hate the way my hair looks.

I know the point of this post is to point out how OTHERS might perceive a statement rather than how the speaker necessarily means it, but I’m struggling to find a way that I could express my personal frustration with MY hair so that someone else won’t take offense or take it personally (even saying “I don’t like the way my hair looks when it’s curly” seems like it could imply that I think anyone with curly hair like mine doesn’t look good). This then feels limiting, like I can’t talk about how I feel about my own body for fear it will hurt someone else’s feelings when that’s not the intent at all.

You say, “There are any number of reasons a person might not want to wear a bikini; my point is that we can, and should, enunciate those reasons rather than rely on “I’m too fat”.” I agree that if there are other reasons, the person should articulate those reasons and not rely on ‘fat’ as an easy crutch. I think though, that, if all things being equal, a woman would wear a garment if she were less fat, she should be able to say that, keeping in mind that it’s not appropriate everywhere/anywhere, like any other language. (And Kelly’s fitting room anecdote instantly comes to mind. Self-flagellation as public performance is, I think, not fair to people around you.)

“And if she thinks she is, indeed, “too fat”, she needs to realize what that says about other fat women. Because whether you agree or not, it does indeed say that there IS such a thing as “too fat” for a bikini, and that therefore, other women might also be “too fat” for one.” Whether you agree or not, it says that there is a thing as “too fat” for a bikini for the particular woman who is speaking about her particular body. It is a neatly self-limited comment. Might it cause other women pain or uncertainty to hear that expressed? Yes. Should considerate people keep that in mind and maybe self-censor accordingly. Yes. But it doesn’t say anything about anyone else and to read that into that is to make someone else’s issues about themselves, about you.

This I can agree with: “At some point, I think there is a level of individual responsibility that must be taken (remembering that we are discussing a situation among those with roughly equal power and privilege — or lack thereof); at some point, one has to be able to step back and avoid taking, as well as giving, offense unnecessarily.”

You are right when you say this is “language used about and against people who are marginalized by society” but I think you have missed how what you are prescribing unfairly puts pressure on “fatties, women, and people with highly curly hair (particularly kinky hair)” when they speak about their own bodies. Because, for instance, I happen to be short, black, brown-skinned, fat, kinky-curly tressed, you are saying I have to be careful in how I talk about my own body in a way that someone who is tall, white, fair, thin, and straight haired does not. I, when talking about my *own* body, need to make sure I don’t say anything that incidentally might contribute to “a culture which is sizeist, misogynist, racist, and so on” because I have to further politicize my body by making sure that I am always advocating for its validity, not engaging in the way I experience it: with joy, sometimes, negativity, sometimes, and ambivalence, often. So while it’s okay to complain about one’s thinness, fairness, straightness, if you are feeling that you are unhappy with your fatness, darkness and kink, you need to be silent. Or euphemistic.