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	<title>Comments on: Tiwonge and Steven are not a &#8220;gay couple&#8221; &#8212; but are they a &#8220;straight couple&#8221;?</title>
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	<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/</link>
	<description>Parenting, privilege, and rethinking the norm</description>
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		<title>By: Arwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-10646</link>
		<dc:creator>Arwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 06:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-10646</guid>
		<description>Marcy -- I gave my best definition of &quot;Western&quot; (which is a problematic identification, but the best I know of at the moment) here: &quot;generally understood to refer to white-dominated, Western-European(-descended) societies, such as the USA, Canada, the UK, Australia, etc.&quot;

As to your questions, I don&#039;t know the answers to most of them, but I specified Western not because I think the West has a monopoly on bigotry, but because it is the only culture I live in, and therefore the only one I can speak on with any authority. Other culture-groups have their own problems, but I don&#039;t know what they are. It was not so much wanting to castigate the West, in particular, as much as wanting to acknowledge that my thinking and my knowledge is limited and is influenced by this particular culture-group. 

(One of the first steps in dismantling any marginalization, as a person who benefits from the oppression of others, is simply to acknowledge it. We privileged folk tend to think that how and what we think is universal, when it isn&#039;t. I want to point out that the way we in the West think about relationships and sexuality are not universal truths, but culturally influenced memes.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marcy &#8212; I gave my best definition of &#8220;Western&#8221; (which is a problematic identification, but the best I know of at the moment) here: &#8220;generally understood to refer to white-dominated, Western-European(-descended) societies, such as the USA, Canada, the UK, Australia, etc.&#8221;</p>
<p>As to your questions, I don&#8217;t know the answers to most of them, but I specified Western not because I think the West has a monopoly on bigotry, but because it is the only culture I live in, and therefore the only one I can speak on with any authority. Other culture-groups have their own problems, but I don&#8217;t know what they are. It was not so much wanting to castigate the West, in particular, as much as wanting to acknowledge that my thinking and my knowledge is limited and is influenced by this particular culture-group. </p>
<p>(One of the first steps in dismantling any marginalization, as a person who benefits from the oppression of others, is simply to acknowledge it. We privileged folk tend to think that how and what we think is universal, when it isn&#8217;t. I want to point out that the way we in the West think about relationships and sexuality are not universal truths, but culturally influenced memes.)</p>
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		<title>By: Marcy</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-9720</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 01:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-9720</guid>
		<description>One thing that comes to mind, is you keep talking about &quot;Western&quot; culture/language/thinking/etc.  Is it only Western culture that lacks an understanding of these alternatives in gender and sexual orientation? I know there are cultures who have much broader understandings of gender, but my impression was that they tend to be smaller, more isolated groupings, whereas most of the rest of the world (Western and non) tends to have more strict interpretations of gender (but maybe that&#039;s just showing my Western/cis/straight bias/privilege).  But, for example, how is TIwonge&#039;s gender, and the couple&#039;s sexuality/identity, viewed in Malawi?  Weren&#039;t they jailed to begin with *because* the local authorities considered them a &quot;gay couple&quot;?  How accepting are non-Western cultures of alternate genders and orientations, are they better than we are at giving appropriate labels?  (and I guess I&#039;m also curious to see what your definition of Western is)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that comes to mind, is you keep talking about &#8220;Western&#8221; culture/language/thinking/etc.  Is it only Western culture that lacks an understanding of these alternatives in gender and sexual orientation? I know there are cultures who have much broader understandings of gender, but my impression was that they tend to be smaller, more isolated groupings, whereas most of the rest of the world (Western and non) tends to have more strict interpretations of gender (but maybe that&#8217;s just showing my Western/cis/straight bias/privilege).  But, for example, how is TIwonge&#8217;s gender, and the couple&#8217;s sexuality/identity, viewed in Malawi?  Weren&#8217;t they jailed to begin with *because* the local authorities considered them a &#8220;gay couple&#8221;?  How accepting are non-Western cultures of alternate genders and orientations, are they better than we are at giving appropriate labels?  (and I guess I&#8217;m also curious to see what your definition of Western is)</p>
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		<title>By: Arwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-9618</link>
		<dc:creator>Arwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 08:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-9618</guid>
		<description>Sandra Dee -- Fair enough. Thank you for your thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandra Dee &#8212; Fair enough. Thank you for your thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: sandra dee</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-9617</link>
		<dc:creator>sandra dee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 08:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-9617</guid>
		<description>I just really don&#039;t like you using them as an introduction for your reflections, as a visual aid for your theories. I mean, I thought you had some fair points, but I don&#039;t think using Tiwonge and Steven as a framing device was a wise choice. The whole post could have not included that and still worked, and that would have not co-opted other people&#039;s lives to make a point, which is not something people should be doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just really don&#8217;t like you using them as an introduction for your reflections, as a visual aid for your theories. I mean, I thought you had some fair points, but I don&#8217;t think using Tiwonge and Steven as a framing device was a wise choice. The whole post could have not included that and still worked, and that would have not co-opted other people&#8217;s lives to make a point, which is not something people should be doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Arwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-9614</link>
		<dc:creator>Arwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 07:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-9614</guid>
		<description>Sandra -- You&#039;re right, you didn&#039;t say that, and I apologize.

But one of the things I see going on with these two -- in addition to the misgendering, which is just the cherry on the cake of the mockery of a trail, the jail time, the public humiliation, the sentence, the insulting pardon, and so on -- is that in an effort to correct the misgendering of Tiwonge, &lt;em&gt;Steven&#039;s sexuality is being denied&lt;/em&gt;.

Now, I don&#039;t know how he identifies. I don&#039;t know how he would identify in his own terms, if he were free to do so in his own culture. From the few comments from him that I&#039;ve read, in Western parlance he would likely identify as gay (again, given that gay men can fall in love with a woman), or queer (or, possibly, asexual, depending on how he meant &quot;I have never had sexual feelings for ladies&quot;). But just as we are assigning &quot;trans&quot; to Tiwonge (whose womanhood, as I said, is not being questioned &lt;em&gt;at all&lt;/em&gt; by that statement), because that best matches our Western understanding, we should continue to respect our best, limited, understanding of Steven&#039;s orientation. And to my mind, that means that calling him part of a &quot;straight couple&quot; is offensive.

Again, &lt;em&gt;I&#039;m not saying I know what he wants&lt;/em&gt;. Maybe he&#039;d love to be seen as part of a straight couple. Maybe he just wants all of us Western pontificators to shut up and leave him alone (which is what I&#039;d place money on). But just as I&#039;m going to continue to speak up to correct the misgendering of Tiwonge rampant in mainstream and alternative media and among my acquaintances, I&#039;m not going to be silenced when I see what looks like -- on the part of Westerners, to my Western understanding, which I fully acknowledge to be potentially erroneous in his own mind and culture -- to be erasure of Steven&#039;s orientation. As you say, haven&#039;t they been through enough already?

And yes, just like it matters to all trans women how Tiwonge is being talked about, whether or not she identifies as trans (or intersex, or a woman according to her own culture) &lt;em&gt;because she is understood by Western culture to be trans&lt;/em&gt; (her misgendering would be offensive and insulting to her regardless), I think it matters to queer people, especially nonmonosexual queer people or queer people in woman/man relationships, how we talk about Steven and his relationship, given what we have heard about his sexuality.

Unlike with Tiwonge, there isn&#039;t an easy fix to Steven&#039;s problem, because we don&#039;t have the words yet -- which is what I was trying to talk about in this post.

Is that -- trying to talk about this small thing, that matters to queer people and might matter to Steven, when what the two of them have been through is so much worse -- gross? Well, it might be. I try to balance topical relevance with avoiding vulture-syndrome, and though I try to err on the side of avoidance, I know I can fail. Perhaps, as you say, I failed with this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandra &#8212; You&#8217;re right, you didn&#8217;t say that, and I apologize.</p>
<p>But one of the things I see going on with these two &#8212; in addition to the misgendering, which is just the cherry on the cake of the mockery of a trail, the jail time, the public humiliation, the sentence, the insulting pardon, and so on &#8212; is that in an effort to correct the misgendering of Tiwonge, <em>Steven&#8217;s sexuality is being denied</em>.</p>
<p>Now, I don&#8217;t know how he identifies. I don&#8217;t know how he would identify in his own terms, if he were free to do so in his own culture. From the few comments from him that I&#8217;ve read, in Western parlance he would likely identify as gay (again, given that gay men can fall in love with a woman), or queer (or, possibly, asexual, depending on how he meant &#8220;I have never had sexual feelings for ladies&#8221;). But just as we are assigning &#8220;trans&#8221; to Tiwonge (whose womanhood, as I said, is not being questioned <em>at all</em> by that statement), because that best matches our Western understanding, we should continue to respect our best, limited, understanding of Steven&#8217;s orientation. And to my mind, that means that calling him part of a &#8220;straight couple&#8221; is offensive.</p>
<p>Again, <em>I&#8217;m not saying I know what he wants</em>. Maybe he&#8217;d love to be seen as part of a straight couple. Maybe he just wants all of us Western pontificators to shut up and leave him alone (which is what I&#8217;d place money on). But just as I&#8217;m going to continue to speak up to correct the misgendering of Tiwonge rampant in mainstream and alternative media and among my acquaintances, I&#8217;m not going to be silenced when I see what looks like &#8212; on the part of Westerners, to my Western understanding, which I fully acknowledge to be potentially erroneous in his own mind and culture &#8212; to be erasure of Steven&#8217;s orientation. As you say, haven&#8217;t they been through enough already?</p>
<p>And yes, just like it matters to all trans women how Tiwonge is being talked about, whether or not she identifies as trans (or intersex, or a woman according to her own culture) <em>because she is understood by Western culture to be trans</em> (her misgendering would be offensive and insulting to her regardless), I think it matters to queer people, especially nonmonosexual queer people or queer people in woman/man relationships, how we talk about Steven and his relationship, given what we have heard about his sexuality.</p>
<p>Unlike with Tiwonge, there isn&#8217;t an easy fix to Steven&#8217;s problem, because we don&#8217;t have the words yet &#8212; which is what I was trying to talk about in this post.</p>
<p>Is that &#8212; trying to talk about this small thing, that matters to queer people and might matter to Steven, when what the two of them have been through is so much worse &#8212; gross? Well, it might be. I try to balance topical relevance with avoiding vulture-syndrome, and though I try to err on the side of avoidance, I know I can fail. Perhaps, as you say, I failed with this one.</p>
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		<title>By: sandra dee</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-9611</link>
		<dc:creator>sandra dee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 06:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-9611</guid>
		<description>Nowhere in my comment did I say it wasn&#039;t worth time analysing. Yes, it&#039;s annoying that our current vocabulary doesn&#039;t account for all relationships, but using this particular story to illustrate that is gross. When a woman is regularly misgendered because of societal norms that is not the time to be messing around with a question like this. You could have just as easily written a post where talking about how you doesn&#039;t like how your relationship is labelled without throwing these two into the mix. They&#039;ve been through enough already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nowhere in my comment did I say it wasn&#8217;t worth time analysing. Yes, it&#8217;s annoying that our current vocabulary doesn&#8217;t account for all relationships, but using this particular story to illustrate that is gross. When a woman is regularly misgendered because of societal norms that is not the time to be messing around with a question like this. You could have just as easily written a post where talking about how you doesn&#8217;t like how your relationship is labelled without throwing these two into the mix. They&#8217;ve been through enough already.</p>
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		<title>By: Arwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-9581</link>
		<dc:creator>Arwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-9581</guid>
		<description>sandra dee -- That&#039;s a fair point, and I thought about that while writing -- I tried to avoid that by explicating that this isn&#039;t about them, but about the way we&#039;re talking about them, and it&#039;s only one, topically relevant, example of such. 

What I am trying to do is not make it about me-me-me (and to the extent that it is so is a failure of my writing, and I own that), but about the language we regularly use and how to make it most respectful for all persons. For Tiwonge and Steven, yes, and particularly Steven, (although as I said on Twitter, they have far bigger concerns, and I doubt they care: we&#039;re talking about Western language, here, after all), and for me, yes, as a queer person in a woman/man relationship, but also for other queer/bisexual people, who are made invisible by the gay couple/straight couple language we use. 

And you could argue that that&#039;s not worthy of my or anyone else&#039;s time, but then you&#039;d be working from the &lt;a href=&quot;http://derailingfordummies.com/#moreimportantly&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Derailing For Dummies crib notes&lt;/a&gt;, and I don&#039;t think that&#039;s your intent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sandra dee &#8212; That&#8217;s a fair point, and I thought about that while writing &#8212; I tried to avoid that by explicating that this isn&#8217;t about them, but about the way we&#8217;re talking about them, and it&#8217;s only one, topically relevant, example of such. </p>
<p>What I am trying to do is not make it about me-me-me (and to the extent that it is so is a failure of my writing, and I own that), but about the language we regularly use and how to make it most respectful for all persons. For Tiwonge and Steven, yes, and particularly Steven, (although as I said on Twitter, they have far bigger concerns, and I doubt they care: we&#8217;re talking about Western language, here, after all), and for me, yes, as a queer person in a woman/man relationship, but also for other queer/bisexual people, who are made invisible by the gay couple/straight couple language we use. </p>
<p>And you could argue that that&#8217;s not worthy of my or anyone else&#8217;s time, but then you&#8217;d be working from the <a href="http://derailingfordummies.com/#moreimportantly" rel="nofollow">Derailing For Dummies crib notes</a>, and I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s your intent.</p>
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		<title>By: sandra dee</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-9573</link>
		<dc:creator>sandra dee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2010 21:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-9573</guid>
		<description>I find it very problematic that you are using the plight of Tiwonge and Steven as a jumping-off point to talk about yourself and your relationship and what labels you prefer. That&#039;s not a good look.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it very problematic that you are using the plight of Tiwonge and Steven as a jumping-off point to talk about yourself and your relationship and what labels you prefer. That&#8217;s not a good look.</p>
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		<title>By: Janelle</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-9547</link>
		<dc:creator>Janelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2010 07:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-9547</guid>
		<description>I have almost always referred to my significant other as &quot;partner&quot;, and it feels weird to me when I say &quot;husband&quot;.  It may be that his identity is more queer than most realize, or that I&#039;ve just changed my thinking/language around the whole thing.  I work to support LGBTQQIA youth, and so I am very conscious of the language I use and what can be implied (or not) by it.

Partner, couple, significant other... all of these also imply only two people in a committed relationship- what about people who love more than one?  I have many friends who are in triads, quads, and more, and, when thinking about it, those relationships have no &quot;gender markers&quot;.  hmmm...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have almost always referred to my significant other as &#8220;partner&#8221;, and it feels weird to me when I say &#8220;husband&#8221;.  It may be that his identity is more queer than most realize, or that I&#8217;ve just changed my thinking/language around the whole thing.  I work to support LGBTQQIA youth, and so I am very conscious of the language I use and what can be implied (or not) by it.</p>
<p>Partner, couple, significant other&#8230; all of these also imply only two people in a committed relationship- what about people who love more than one?  I have many friends who are in triads, quads, and more, and, when thinking about it, those relationships have no &#8220;gender markers&#8221;.  hmmm&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Katie B.</title>
		<link>http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2010/05/tiwonge-and-steven-are-not-a-gay-couple-but-are-they-a-straight-couple/#comment-9533</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2010 02:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=2372#comment-9533</guid>
		<description>&#039;scuzi, that should be &quot;finer&quot; details.  Trying not to call it a label here, and the language doesn&#039;t offer me many options.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;scuzi, that should be &#8220;finer&#8221; details.  Trying not to call it a label here, and the language doesn&#8217;t offer me many options.</p>
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