Comments on: Dancing between the tables: on the personhood of children http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/ Parenting, privilege, and rethinking the norm Tue, 07 Feb 2012 04:59:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Mattie http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-83558 Mattie Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:41:41 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-83558 I worked for a while in a portrait studio, and I had to wrestle with this sort of thing every day. Because, see, while I'd do everything in my power to convince the kids that it was going to be fun, or to make them laugh, or generally just talk them into cooperating, I didn't like <i>forcing</i> a kid to get their picture taken. And, especially with the younger kids, they'd sometimes just not have the patience/attention span/energy for a full (9-12 different poses) shoot. At which point I would offer to the parents that we call it a day and schedule them to come finish later, when the child was in a better mood/had eaten/had a nap/hadn't already been in the camera room for 20 minutes. And so often, the parents just said "no, just keep going," even though their child was screaming or crying or generally not wanting to do the shoot anymore. Unfortunately, I was not allowed to decree "we are done for today, you must come back later to finish when your child is up for it", so it was very hard on me, and I'm generally glad to not be doing that job anymore despite how much I loved talking to the kids and goofing off with them. When I have children, I hope to be able to parent like they're PEOPLE. I want them to be allowed to choose what to eat (within reason, no ice cream for a week, that's not healthy for anyone), what to wear (my son wants to wear a pretty dress? My daughter wants to wear bulldozers and dinosaurs? Their choice!), and who they're going to be. It's going to be hard, I already know that, because I know that I won't be parenting in a "traditional" way and I'll probably catch flak for it, and it'll be kind of hard starting out because I was raised with spankings and threats and time outs, but it's so important to me that my children don't feel as voiceless and unimportant as I did so often growing up. I worked for a while in a portrait studio, and I had to wrestle with this sort of thing every day. Because, see, while I’d do everything in my power to convince the kids that it was going to be fun, or to make them laugh, or generally just talk them into cooperating, I didn’t like forcing a kid to get their picture taken.

And, especially with the younger kids, they’d sometimes just not have the patience/attention span/energy for a full (9-12 different poses) shoot. At which point I would offer to the parents that we call it a day and schedule them to come finish later, when the child was in a better mood/had eaten/had a nap/hadn’t already been in the camera room for 20 minutes. And so often, the parents just said “no, just keep going,” even though their child was screaming or crying or generally not wanting to do the shoot anymore.

Unfortunately, I was not allowed to decree “we are done for today, you must come back later to finish when your child is up for it”, so it was very hard on me, and I’m generally glad to not be doing that job anymore despite how much I loved talking to the kids and goofing off with them.

When I have children, I hope to be able to parent like they’re PEOPLE. I want them to be allowed to choose what to eat (within reason, no ice cream for a week, that’s not healthy for anyone), what to wear (my son wants to wear a pretty dress? My daughter wants to wear bulldozers and dinosaurs? Their choice!), and who they’re going to be. It’s going to be hard, I already know that, because I know that I won’t be parenting in a “traditional” way and I’ll probably catch flak for it, and it’ll be kind of hard starting out because I was raised with spankings and threats and time outs, but it’s so important to me that my children don’t feel as voiceless and unimportant as I did so often growing up.

]]> By: Heather http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-82750 Heather Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:57:40 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-82750 I can't love this article enough. I want to send you flowers and a huge THANK YOU SO MUCH! You said what so many of us have been struggling to say ever since that horrid article came out. It's bigotry. It's an example of how children have fewer rights than dogs. It's INFURIATING. I'm not reading the comments, because these kinds of articles always attract the very people the author vilifies, but I'm sorry for every person who utterly missed the message due to one sentence here or their general societal brainwashing (that I, like most adults who choose to see children as PEOPLE, not ADULTS, still struggle to shed). I can’t love this article enough. I want to send you flowers and a huge THANK YOU SO MUCH! You said what so many of us have been struggling to say ever since that horrid article came out. It’s bigotry. It’s an example of how children have fewer rights than dogs. It’s INFURIATING.

I’m not reading the comments, because these kinds of articles always attract the very people the author vilifies, but I’m sorry for every person who utterly missed the message due to one sentence here or their general societal brainwashing (that I, like most adults who choose to see children as PEOPLE, not ADULTS, still struggle to shed).

]]> By: Dad#6 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-82130 Dad#6 Thu, 07 Jul 2011 14:36:57 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-82130 Being a writer myself, it's odd that I can't quite crystallize my thoughts. I have many, both positive and negative. Instead, I will just try to put forth what I am thinking, rather than what I actually believe. I am a father of a wonderful, odd, force-of-nature 7 year old, whom I love more than anything. What I know is that I am not a perfect parent, but I also know that I can usually tell when I am not, and try to correct it. I know I am not always successful. I read this article, and I get certain vibes. The strongest vibe is that Arwyn loves her child/children, and believes strongly in the rights of all. Nothing wrong with that. My thoughts are that the writings on this blog come from someone who has lived a certain type of life, and observed a certain spectrum of behaviors and prejudices, and writes about them. Well, so do a host of other people as well. So my thought is, does it mean one person is "right" and another is "wrong"? Does the opinion of a person who has children and devotes their life to their care and upbringing mean more than a person who is childless? I don't know, these are thoughts. Everyone has their own personal anecdotes about children in public, both of their own and of others. Then, we all go home, think about it a while, then take our time writing about it, tweaking the tale with the perfect verbiage. Isn't it interesting how when you have all the time in the world, we can fashion the perfect response to something? What about when the event is ACTUALLY happening, in real time? Not as easy to weigh all your options and be perfect, rational citizens, is it? So now, I will veer from a thought and give an actual opinion. I believe in my heart that most people ARE, in fact, reasonable and fair. However, we live in a society where instances to the contrary are held up higher than the others, because they are loud, garish, and attract more attention to themselves. Take two people, one who has kids (Parent), and one who doesn't (Civilian). For this example, let's just say that they are both ideologically the same. If during a given week, the Parent sees kids being 'discriminated' against over and over again (disapproving glares, people complaining, abuse in public), well, Parent is going to write about the injustice they witnessed. Many will voice support. Conversely, if Civilian, during that same week, witnesses the opposite behavior (by this I mean public behavior that Arwyn, et al, would agree is questionable), well, they are going to write about it from THAT angle. And who is "right"? And by that, I mean at what point do the two sides start uttering the same phrase to each other: "Well, maybe that's YOUR experience, but I think MY experience is more the norm." In closing, I guess I would just say that it is obvious that Arwyn is a bright, intelligent, thoughtful person, one who has taken life experiences and translated those experiences to the page with the intent of bringing to light issues that concern not just her, but ALL of us. Problem is, not everyone in society is as bright, intelligent, or thoughtful. And some of them are parents, too. Being a writer myself, it’s odd that I can’t quite crystallize my thoughts.
I have many, both positive and negative. Instead, I will just try to put forth what I am thinking, rather than what I actually believe.
I am a father of a wonderful, odd, force-of-nature 7 year old, whom I love more than anything. What I know is that I am not a perfect parent, but I also know that I can usually tell when I am not, and try to correct it. I know I am not always successful.
I read this article, and I get certain vibes. The strongest vibe is that Arwyn loves her child/children, and believes strongly in the rights of all.
Nothing wrong with that.
My thoughts are that the writings on this blog come from someone who has lived a certain type of life, and observed a certain spectrum of behaviors and prejudices, and writes about them. Well, so do a host of other people as well. So my thought is, does it mean one person is “right” and another is “wrong”? Does the opinion of a person who has children and devotes their life to their care and upbringing mean more than a person who is childless? I don’t know, these are thoughts.
Everyone has their own personal anecdotes about children in public, both of their own and of others. Then, we all go home, think about it a while, then take our time writing about it, tweaking the tale with the perfect verbiage. Isn’t it interesting how when you have all the time in the world, we can fashion the perfect response to something? What about when the event is ACTUALLY happening, in real time? Not as easy to weigh all your options and be perfect, rational citizens, is it?
So now, I will veer from a thought and give an actual opinion. I believe in my heart that most people ARE, in fact, reasonable and fair. However, we live in a society where instances to the contrary are held up higher than the others, because they are loud, garish, and attract more attention to themselves.
Take two people, one who has kids (Parent), and one who doesn’t (Civilian). For this example, let’s just say that they are both ideologically the same. If during a given week, the Parent sees kids being ‘discriminated’ against over and over again (disapproving glares, people complaining, abuse in public), well, Parent is going to write about the injustice they witnessed. Many will voice support.
Conversely, if Civilian, during that same week, witnesses the opposite behavior (by this I mean public behavior that Arwyn, et al, would agree is questionable), well, they are going to write about it from THAT angle. And who is “right”? And by that, I mean at what point do the two sides start uttering the same phrase to each other: “Well, maybe that’s YOUR experience, but I think MY experience is more the norm.”
In closing, I guess I would just say that it is obvious that Arwyn is a bright, intelligent, thoughtful person, one who has taken life experiences and translated those experiences to the page with the intent of bringing to light issues that concern not just her, but ALL of us.
Problem is, not everyone in society is as bright, intelligent, or thoughtful.
And some of them are parents, too.

]]> By: Arwyn http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-82058 Arwyn Thu, 07 Jul 2011 02:56:52 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-82058 Alaina -- having a low tolerance for the behavior of children doesn't make one a bigot (hell, I often have a low tolerance for my own child's behavior). Thinking that your discomfort trumps another person's right to be in public, or gives you a right to call them names, or is somehow justifiable or objective and not simply a personal preference; or to lump all children into the same category and judge them all based on stereotypes or on the few most negative encounters you've experienced: that would make one a bigot. Same as with any other group of people. Alaina — having a low tolerance for the behavior of children doesn’t make one a bigot (hell, I often have a low tolerance for my own child’s behavior). Thinking that your discomfort trumps another person’s right to be in public, or gives you a right to call them names, or is somehow justifiable or objective and not simply a personal preference; or to lump all children into the same category and judge them all based on stereotypes or on the few most negative encounters you’ve experienced: that would make one a bigot. Same as with any other group of people.

]]> By: Alaina http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-82032 Alaina Wed, 06 Jul 2011 21:52:24 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-82032 I have read a number of articles/blogs like this in the last few years, and I'm not totally on board with the children-as-an-oppressed-group movement. But it's interesting to consider. I have a low tolerance in general for children. Makes me sound like a rotten person, even a "bigot" in this blog's parlance, but I never begrudge children being who they are. While parents should model, encourage and reward pleasant behavior, I know it's natural for kids to be shrieky and jumpy and run all over the place. I don't dislike them for it - everyone goes through that phase of their lives - but I do try to get as far away as possible from noisy kids if I can, so they can be kid-people without getting on my nerves. But I would say that parents do have a responsibility to control their child's behavior to a reasonable degree (or remove them from the situation), not just for the comfort of others but because people don't move from the healthy behaviors of childhood to the healthy behaviors of adulthood without that guidance. I did come close to yelling at a mother once in public. She had brought her three-year-old to a late-night showing of a horrendously scary movie about a young child who gets kidnapped by a terrifying demon. In that case I felt sorry for the child. I write pretty often on my own blog about travails with children in public. Thanks for your perspective. I have read a number of articles/blogs like this in the last few years, and I’m not totally on board with the children-as-an-oppressed-group movement. But it’s interesting to consider.

I have a low tolerance in general for children. Makes me sound like a rotten person, even a “bigot” in this blog’s parlance, but I never begrudge children being who they are. While parents should model, encourage and reward pleasant behavior, I know it’s natural for kids to be shrieky and jumpy and run all over the place. I don’t dislike them for it – everyone goes through that phase of their lives – but I do try to get as far away as possible from noisy kids if I can, so they can be kid-people without getting on my nerves. But I would say that parents do have a responsibility to control their child’s behavior to a reasonable degree (or remove them from the situation), not just for the comfort of others but because people don’t move from the healthy behaviors of childhood to the healthy behaviors of adulthood without that guidance.

I did come close to yelling at a mother once in public. She had brought her three-year-old to a late-night showing of a horrendously scary movie about a young child who gets kidnapped by a terrifying demon. In that case I felt sorry for the child.

I write pretty often on my own blog about travails with children in public. Thanks for your perspective.

]]> By: November Goodies http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-75929 November Goodies Tue, 17 May 2011 14:52:07 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-75929 [...] Dancing between the tables: on the personhood of children … children will, should all go minimally well, eventually turn into adults; no other group [...] [...] Dancing between the tables: on the personhood of children … children will, should all go minimally well, eventually turn into adults; no other group [...]

]]> By: I’m pro-choice because… | Raising My Boychick http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-70913 I’m pro-choice because… | Raising My Boychick Sun, 10 Apr 2011 01:26:38 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-70913 [...] pro-choice because banning abortion doesn’t help recognize the personhood of children, it removes the personhood of people with [...] [...] pro-choice because banning abortion doesn’t help recognize the personhood of children, it removes the personhood of people with [...]

]]> By: Top 10 of 2010 « Raising My Boychick http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-58548 Top 10 of 2010 « Raising My Boychick Sun, 02 Jan 2011 07:59:55 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-58548 [...] my outdated About page, one is the category page for Naked Pictures of Faceless People, and one is Dancing between the tables: on the personhood of children, which was written in October of 2009. ↩ 1 January 2011 at 11:50 pm | Category: Life, the [...] [...] my outdated About page, one is the category page for Naked Pictures of Faceless People, and one is Dancing between the tables: on the personhood of children, which was written in October of 2009. ↩ 1 January 2011 at 11:50 pm | Category: Life, the [...]

]]> By: Whose child is this? Kyriarchy, privilege, and motherhood « Raising My Boychick http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-57115 Whose child is this? Kyriarchy, privilege, and motherhood « Raising My Boychick Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:16:26 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-57115 [...] Dancing between the tables: on the personhood of children [...] [...] Dancing between the tables: on the personhood of children [...]

]]> By: Inspiration Monday – DPP and Heading to Eugene – TheOrganicSister http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/10/dancing-between-the-tables-on-the-personhood-of-children/#comment-47146 Inspiration Monday – DPP and Heading to Eugene – TheOrganicSister Mon, 06 Dec 2010 13:47:45 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/?p=919#comment-47146 [...] reminded me of this awesome [...] [...] reminded me of this awesome [...]

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