Comments on: The problem with “the problem with men” http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/ Parenting, privilege, and rethinking the norm Tue, 07 Feb 2012 04:59:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Amy Bradstreet http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10337 Amy Bradstreet Mon, 14 Jun 2010 23:14:24 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10337 This is something that has always irritated and even angered me and my partner, and now our children, a daughter and a son. My daughter hears this bullshit from other mothers who assume she doesn't want to hang out with "the boys". My son, 11, gets handed a pad and pen at the restaurant, courtesy of his grandmother who assumes he can't "keep it together" long enough to enjoy a meal out, and yes, my partner gets the "Man Of The Decade" award for sewing up a princess costume for his then 3 year old daughter. A couple of months ago, my daughter was attending a Girl Scout activity day and I was assisting. I walked in on one of other instructors, teaching a cooking class, saying to all the girls that "the boys are just interested in the food and can't be bothered to clean up...sigh...that's boys, for ya!" I felt my blood drain first then heard the words "I don't think you can generalize about boys or men that way. I think it's extremely inappropriate and wrong" coming from my mouth. The teacher went on to blather what she thought was an apology, which was really just a lengthy rationalization for her comments. I was so outraged that she would take it upon herself to say things like that, and to Girl Scouts--you know, future leaders and all that, no less! This is something that has always irritated and even angered me and my partner, and now our children, a daughter and a son. My daughter hears this bullshit from other mothers who assume she doesn’t want to hang out with “the boys”. My son, 11, gets handed a pad and pen at the restaurant, courtesy of his grandmother who assumes he can’t “keep it together” long enough to enjoy a meal out, and yes, my partner gets the “Man Of The Decade” award for sewing up a princess costume for his then 3 year old daughter. A couple of months ago, my daughter was attending a Girl Scout activity day and I was assisting. I walked in on one of other instructors, teaching a cooking class, saying to all the girls that “the boys are just interested in the food and can’t be bothered to clean up…sigh…that’s boys, for ya!” I felt my blood drain first then heard the words “I don’t think you can generalize about boys or men that way. I think it’s extremely inappropriate and wrong” coming from my mouth. The teacher went on to blather what she thought was an apology, which was really just a lengthy rationalization for her comments. I was so outraged that she would take it upon herself to say things like that, and to Girl Scouts–you know, future leaders and all that, no less!

]]> By: Grandfather http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10201 Grandfather Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:00:45 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10201 What is sad is that HE thought it was funny. What is sad is that HE thought it was funny.

]]> By: maria http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10099 maria Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:40:25 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10099 err, not to mention that the whole "just as bad as the children" thing doesn't bode very well for the children, either. but that's a whole other post. err, not to mention that the whole “just as bad as the children” thing doesn’t bode very well for the children, either. but that’s a whole other post.

]]> By: maria http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10098 maria Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:38:25 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10098 OK, so the reason this stuck with me (besides the fact that I am partnered with a single dad and therefore slightly more aware of negative dad-stereotypes, and also very biased). I remember reading a lot of Berenstain Bears as a kid. I liked the books and would get them out of the library of my own volition. It wasn't until later that my parents confessed that they <i>loathed</i> those books--my dad in particular did. Why? Because Papa Bear is the quintessential Incompetent Dad. He is Just as Bad as the Children, indeed much like a third child himself, when the cubs watch too much TV or eat too much junk food. And Mama Bear is standing in the doorway with a stern expression, <i>tsk-tsk</i>ing and waggling her finger. My dad, who cooked half the meals, did most of the laundry and the dishes, and (unlike the rest of the family, my mom included) played none of the video games, was justifiably indignant at the portrayal of men (men who are parents in particular) as bumbling overgrown children. I have a faint memory of the time, when I was an older kid, that my dad related his exasperation about this to me. But that has stuck with me. And this post points out the hidden misogyny in those portrayals better than I ever could. Also, feminists do laugh at this: http://current.com/shows/infomania/90569059_sarah-haskins-in-target-women-doofy-husbands.htm OK, so the reason this stuck with me (besides the fact that I am partnered with a single dad and therefore slightly more aware of negative dad-stereotypes, and also very biased).

I remember reading a lot of Berenstain Bears as a kid. I liked the books and would get them out of the library of my own volition. It wasn’t until later that my parents confessed that they loathed those books–my dad in particular did. Why? Because Papa Bear is the quintessential Incompetent Dad. He is Just as Bad as the Children, indeed much like a third child himself, when the cubs watch too much TV or eat too much junk food. And Mama Bear is standing in the doorway with a stern expression, tsk-tsking and waggling her finger.

My dad, who cooked half the meals, did most of the laundry and the dishes, and (unlike the rest of the family, my mom included) played none of the video games, was justifiably indignant at the portrayal of men (men who are parents in particular) as bumbling overgrown children. I have a faint memory of the time, when I was an older kid, that my dad related his exasperation about this to me. But that has stuck with me. And this post points out the hidden misogyny in those portrayals better than I ever could.

Also, feminists do laugh at this: http://current.com/shows/infomania/90569059_sarah-haskins-in-target-women-doofy-husbands.htm

]]> By: Kelly http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10091 Kelly Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:57:30 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-10091 Holy cow! I just wrote a massive post at mymilkspilt talking about this same subject (the post was either deleted or is in mod or was eaten, I can't tell). In any case you are one hundred percent correct. And my partner & I don't laugh at that stuff either. Holy cow! I just wrote a massive post at mymilkspilt talking about this same subject (the post was either deleted or is in mod or was eaten, I can’t tell).

In any case you are one hundred percent correct. And my partner & I don’t laugh at that stuff either.

]]> By: Liz http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-1279 Liz Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:04:59 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-1279 :D I know this is old. What if he had instead commented something like "oops, got so focused on the goal we forgot the details. You'd think that would've evolved away by now." Would that have been funny? (I'm SC, btw) :D I know this is old.

What if he had instead commented something like “oops, got so focused on the goal we forgot the details. You’d think that would’ve evolved away by now.”

Would that have been funny?

(I’m SC, btw)

]]> By: Arwyn http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-553 Arwyn Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:57:35 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-553 Tamar: The problem is multifold: when one takes from an example of one (your partner is not as likely to remember towels) to an assertion about all members of that gender (therefore all men forget); from an example in a particular instance (men are less likely to remember) to an assertion of ability (men are incapable of remembering); and essentializing from a trend (men socialized in this culture tend not to remember) to an immutable inherent characteristic (it is fundamental and unchangeable to men that they forget).<br /><br />It might be slightly amusing when a stereotype is inadvertently met, but I do not find it amusing when an inadvertently met stereotype is used to support and reinforce that stereotype as an immutable truism about all men, and for the reasons outlined in the post, it is one small example of the ways patriarchy reinforces sexism and misogyny.<br /><br />Anonymous: No, he was making a very deliberate joke, and said exactly what he meant to say. (He's something of a smartass.) There was some followup conversation indicating that he really was intending to generalize about ALL men and an immutable characteristic of being unable to "think ahead" in that fashion.<br /><br />I also disagree that he was "damned" in this post; I addressed only the "joke" and its repercussions for women and stereotype-defying men, and did not condemn him. He's my brother-in-law, and a good friend; he just also exists in and acts to support the patriarchy, and my goal as a blogger is to point out the ways in which such seemingly small moments perpetuate sexism, so that we can be aware of and, I hope, avoid them, and in that way work against kyriarchy.<br /><br />Thank you both for your comments. Tamar: The problem is multifold: when one takes from an example of one (your partner is not as likely to remember towels) to an assertion about all members of that gender (therefore all men forget); from an example in a particular instance (men are less likely to remember) to an assertion of ability (men are incapable of remembering); and essentializing from a trend (men socialized in this culture tend not to remember) to an immutable inherent characteristic (it is fundamental and unchangeable to men that they forget).

It might be slightly amusing when a stereotype is inadvertently met, but I do not find it amusing when an inadvertently met stereotype is used to support and reinforce that stereotype as an immutable truism about all men, and for the reasons outlined in the post, it is one small example of the ways patriarchy reinforces sexism and misogyny.

Anonymous: No, he was making a very deliberate joke, and said exactly what he meant to say. (He's something of a smartass.) There was some followup conversation indicating that he really was intending to generalize about ALL men and an immutable characteristic of being unable to "think ahead" in that fashion.

I also disagree that he was "damned" in this post; I addressed only the "joke" and its repercussions for women and stereotype-defying men, and did not condemn him. He's my brother-in-law, and a good friend; he just also exists in and acts to support the patriarchy, and my goal as a blogger is to point out the ways in which such seemingly small moments perpetuate sexism, so that we can be aware of and, I hope, avoid them, and in that way work against kyriarchy.

Thank you both for your comments.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-551 Anonymous Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:18:13 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-551 Of course, he could have just been self-depreciating, and in the process, generalizing that he is representative of all men.<br /><br />If he had said "I don't think that far ahead", would he have still been so strongly damned? Of course, he could have just been self-depreciating, and in the process, generalizing that he is representative of all men.

If he had said "I don't think that far ahead", would he have still been so strongly damned?

]]> By: tamar http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-531 tamar Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:54:30 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-531 My boy's father is actually more averse to this type of statement (more so when it is not a joke) than I am. He is also as involved a father as anyone could hope for while making do with limited time with his boy because of very demanding work. If he weren't the way he is I might be seriously annoyed by such jokes, but as it is I don't find them particularly harmful. The reality is that I am, in fact, the one more likely to remember to prepare a towel in advance of running out to play with the sprinklers. And it doesn't mean anything other than that, but it could be considered amusing that a stereotype is being inadvertently met. My boy's father is actually more averse to this type of statement (more so when it is not a joke) than I am. He is also as involved a father as anyone could hope for while making do with limited time with his boy because of very demanding work. If he weren't the way he is I might be seriously annoyed by such jokes, but as it is I don't find them particularly harmful. The reality is that I am, in fact, the one more likely to remember to prepare a towel in advance of running out to play with the sprinklers. And it doesn't mean anything other than that, but it could be considered amusing that a stereotype is being inadvertently met.

]]> By: Arwyn http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-493 Arwyn Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:45:22 +0000 http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/07/the-problem-with-the-problem-with-men/#comment-493 Ah, Anonymous, you disprove your assertion with your assertion, 'cause that was pretty funny: I did say "call me a humorless feminist all you like" after all. <br /><br />Particles Of Stone: well, I don't think we can reasonably say men have it worse with this type of sexism, although <a href="http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/2009/01/can-we-stop-saying-patriarchy-is-good-for-men/" rel="nofollow">sexism IS bad for men</a>. It's more that these types of jokes are just another facet of the same old tired misogynistic sexism. And yes, some men do repeat them just so they can be lazy, although in general, for most men, I don't think it's that simple or that nefarious. But that's probably another post. Ah, Anonymous, you disprove your assertion with your assertion, 'cause that was pretty funny: I did say "call me a humorless feminist all you like" after all.

Particles Of Stone: well, I don't think we can reasonably say men have it worse with this type of sexism, although sexism IS bad for men. It's more that these types of jokes are just another facet of the same old tired misogynistic sexism. And yes, some men do repeat them just so they can be lazy, although in general, for most men, I don't think it's that simple or that nefarious. But that's probably another post.

]]>